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Jack K16d ago
Physical world (universe) must be closed mathematically (hence Planck Temp = 21M cap in equivalence). Without a boundary there can be no meaning, measurement or time. The universe is its own entire ledger, bitcoin is a bounded fraction, or partition, of said ledger. It’s a fractal of the same thing. It’s all just peer to peer “cash” (energy) systems. There are only p2p transactions. Ledger > Money The rules of the universal ledger must be extratemporal to the ledger, meaning they must exist outside and prior to the time it produces. The ledger upholds the rules it was given. Only from the structure of bitcoin can we deduce what must be prior. Think a literal fractal of bitcoin. So we live in a cluster of nodes sharing 1 singular chain of work and consensus. If you lived in bitcoin, you only see the ledger, not the nodes. Someone/something must be mining the Planck Blocks which we are emergent from. It’s all “Bitcoin” (The Rule).
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Replies (33)

Jack K16d ago
@Zsubmariner the 1st picture of “space” is what the ledger looks like from inside, a perspective from the tip of the chain looking back towards Genesis. You can see only the “active utxo set” of energy, not the history leading up to the present state. A bounded fraction of ledger inside the ledger. The 2nd picture is what the ledger looks like from the outside, a perspective where you can look orthogonal to time, orthogonal to the chain and see the entire lineage up to the active utxo set. Again, this isn’t the universal ledger, it’s bitcoins ledger, but it is what the exterior of the universe must look like from the architecture of time. Hence my point, what we call ontological inside the ledger, is epistemic if you could be outside the ledger as demonstrated by Bitcoin. All we can do is recognize Bitcoin is the universe begun anew. We are the architects of Bitcoins time.
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Zsubmariner16d ago
Thanks, Jack! I have a few follow-up questions, if I may: "Physical world (universe) must be closed mathematically (hence Planck Temp = 21M cap in equivalence). Without a boundary there can be no meaning, measurement or time." The physical world is energetically closed (21Mx10M sats, ignoring issuance) but, just as Bitcoin is not a closed system in other ways, notably signature inputs, do you think the physical ledger can have other kinds of input? "The universe is its own entire ledger, bitcoin is a bounded fraction, or partition, of said ledger. It’s a fractal of the same thing. It’s all just peer to peer “cash” (energy) systems. There are only p2p transactions." Can you tell me what it is to indicate that it's fractal in this way? I see Satoshi as having done something quite unique, in physically implementing an analog of conservation, aka "the invention of digital scarcity". This seems quite different to me than saying that, this recursion not withstanding, the world is a fractal. I wonder if this is a point I am missing. What shows us that it is a fractal? Is this about how information is integrated at different scales? Also, just to be sure, what are peers? Are those addresses in the keyspace? "Ledger > Money" Can you say more about this? Do you mean this to describe causation? "The rules of the universal ledger must be extratemporal to the ledger, meaning they must exist outside and prior to the time it produces. The ledger upholds the rules it was given. Only from the structure of bitcoin can we deduce what must be prior." I'm a little confused by this. In Bitcoin terms, the rule exists and the rule is not the ledger. The ledger is a product of the protocol. But I don't think the ledger upholds the rule. Maybe you meant that the other way around? I agree we can only infer prior states may have been from current state from within time, based on our imperfect knowledge of the rule. Do you think the rule is deterministic? Thanks again!
Teo15d ago
In order to attempt to understand some of these concepts as a non-technical person, I imagine myself as a utxo within the network. My only experience of reality would be when I was either created or spent, and encoded into a new block. Does this make sense as a way to imagine the fractal relationship?
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Neal14d ago
@Zsubmariner @Jack K Hey guys, I’ve read through what I think is all of the tread, sorry if i missed something. Good discussion, these are really important ideas. I don’t know the best way to respond given the depth and breadth of the thread, but here are some ideas which came to my mind. Godel’s Incompletness Theorems mathematically prove no formal system can capture all the truths within its structure. That’s really the form of any error we make when trying to shoe horn reality, a hylomorphic phenomenon, into an either or. Form and matter: there is a physical world, and there immaterial order. The relation between both is reality. So out of the blocks, the “physics explains reality” is doomed It describes a part, not the whole. Any system which excludes the coherent possblility of its origin can never be an account of the whole. if you arrive at an “infinite regress” or “something from nothing” as your account for the origin, understand you have arrived at the undefeated impasses This is why you run into trouble with your conception of time. A discrete measure, presupposes a the continuous, so we can’t deny the present. time presupposes an eternal/comtinuous now. Aristole wrestled with these problems 2000 years ago, and he accepted the impasses on both extremes and and arrived at what Gödel proves later with math. We have a 111k word manuscript on this exact relation. the physics stuff is great about that part of reality, we just can’t mistake it for the whole
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Jack K16d ago
Q1: Yes, it seems logical. The system must be energetically closed in order to produce irreversible time and uphold conservation. Signature inputs clearly exist, but the deeper question is who is signing our transactions? If signatures are required for state transitions, then the ultimate signatures must precede time (Planck Time) itself, coming from a higher order. The causal act must originate beyond the temporal sequence it produces. Q2: It comes from chrono-logic but also from a higher-order intuition/gut feeling. When you look at the architecture of time Bitcoin instantiates, it demonstrates the full range of behaviors attributed to QM (superposition, entanglement, measurement, etc) but grounds them in a discrete, irreversible process. It is the only logical object we have that can actually produce measurement. No other object exists that can instantiate universal behavior informationally rather than physically. Mathematics began in two places: the ledger and cosmology. One tracked conserved value across time; the other tracked recurring cycles within the order of the heavens, the chain observed from within. Both arose from accounting for what persists and situating ourselves within ordered sequence. Both are descriptions of the same thing. Satoshi did not invent an analogy to conservation. He instantiated conservation of energy and conservation of information within a single system. He recreated the necessary conditions for irreversible time. We are witnessing simultaneously the internal and external experience of that structure. All physical experience is logically information recorded in a ledger by the chrono-logic. Peers are those in control of keys internally within the Bitcoin network, and analogously within the universe itself. There is the network inside time, and there is that which stands extratemporally: the higher order whose tx outputs form the basis of our cognition itself. The chrono-logic of time says we must derived from outputs in Planck blocks of time. Money is a distraction from the ledger. It is part of the ledger, but not the whole structure in operation. We are captivated by value and miss the architecture that makes value possible. It was never about money, it was about the ledger. That’s why the origin of mathematics matters here. “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” - Matthew 6:24 Q3 The ledger is inseparable from the rules; they are not independent layers but the same structure viewed through different vertices of the semantic triangle — rule, object, and representation. The rules require instantiation to be meaningful, and the ledger requires rules to conserve anything at all. Remove the object and the rule has nothing to bind. Remove the rule and the ledger records nothing coherent. They cannot be separated because they co-define one another. A ledger without rules conserves nothing. Rules without a ledger instantiate nothing. Meaning arises only where rule, object, and inscription converge. The rule is deterministic in structure. Follow it honestly and it always converges on Bitcoin (not the arbitrary rules like 21M numerically, but the structural ones…the mathematically boundary itself). If you continue following the chrono-logic to its ground, it converges on God as the grand architect. The only true signer of keys.
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Jack K15d ago
This is where I think a conversation helps too, there’s so much ordered logic between the words. Hard to express through text on nostr. We could go much deeper in conversation and be able to dissect specific parts and language. I’m formally recognizing my language is imperfect and I am new to describing what I see.
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Zsubmariner15d ago
I have a thought about plank, tell me if this seems right to you: since time is discrete and the keyspace is discrete, there really is no in-between. What we call plank distance or plank time is not a measure of a real thing. It's just a description of the propagation rule viewed from the inside. There is no in-between. Only time and eternity. It's hard to think about it without smuggling timespace terms outside the chain, I've noticed. I think that's a huge challenge to the language and thinking here. Cognition and computation are themselves time-bound/on-chain. Yet we can grasp what we cannot compute.
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Teo15d ago
I just realized that you already affirmed this in another conversation. So the reason I brought it up is that a utxo that only experiences reality when a state change occurs, would not have any way of observing signature inputs, or any other external input. Therefore, the question of whether these inputs exist in our universe would be also impossible to verify, right? Fascinating to ponder, though. It reminds me thst the real fuel propelling this fractal mirror of time is us humans. If we don't interact with it, it ends. So is the Creator of our universe involved in this way as well? Or is our universe a fully contained system that propells itself? Somehow it always comes down to this question, doesn't it?
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Jack K15d ago
Yes lol. Science likes to reject this. IMO, the Creator is the grand architect, the original signer of all transactions of all things. The question becomes how many timechains fractally embedded in another (time within time within time within time within time within time) does it take to get to the one signer. All signatures occur before time. We can’t see beyond the event horizon to know. All we can do is acknowledge Bitcoin is time, a universe begun a new, and this information and system is causing our physical reality to reorient around this. Bitcoin’s gravity is real. Much more to say, but it needs a lot of context. 😂
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Teo15d ago
How crazy would it be if we were all just perfect money for some other society? 😅
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Zsubmariner15d ago
My current model of it is that addresses are all possible state locations (addresses). That's location in a logical sense, but maps to the space we experience because of the way energy states transform. Your will acts through the keys which map to your body. You are a signer, cosigning the transactions that life offers you. You have a rational intellect that grasps the order (abstract, non physical) superstructure. That makes reality intelligible to you, so that you can choose to cosign more order into the physical world. This is what it actually means to have intelligence, and be a moral actor. You are a free intersection of temporal and non-temporal being. You have utxos (energy in time) grasp timeless order and posses a signing key. (Body, intelect, will.) I may just not get the whole block chain fractal yet. My way of thinking of it is that the present is just one block or tensor covering the state of every address. Time is a squence of stepwise locally integrated transformations via a kernel function on the whole keyspace. (A convolution.) One key space state to the next key space state. This is the paper we are talking about. It explores what Bitcoin might tell us about the architecture of time: https://bitcoinlens.net/ This essay is my take on it, poorly named because it didn't end up really going into theology, just physics and metaphysics based on the insights in the paper and how I think they really flower when grounded on Thomistic metaphysics. https://zsubmesh.net/essays/bitcoin-and-the-theology-of-t…
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Jack K15d ago
Yes, all movement must be transactions, meaning inclusion in blocks of time. There would be no “movement” but just different configuration states of value/memory in the ledger. So persistence without falling into the stasis of time would require continual transactions in blocks at the tip of the chain. There was a physicist who proposed this in 1927 in attempt to build a model of quantized time.
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Jack K15d ago
There is nothing in between blocks of time inside the ledger or between addresses in keyspace. There are only quantized boundaries separating one from another. That’s why we correlated the speed of information in bitcoin and the speed of light in the universe as identical interpretations of the same substrate in their respective ledgers, one perspective is interior and physical (ontological), the other is exterior and informational (epistemological). Planck Time and Length are real, but they are the propagation/update rule of blocks experienced within. There are only singular blocks of time, everything else is a derivative of those blocks in fluid motion. Hence the relationship of time and distance and time and memory. A true mirror. Obviously outside of Bitcoins ledger the are a vast number of Planck blocks that exist between each bitcoin block (stochastic), but that’s only because of where we exist as observers. We simply can never see the time between Planck blocks from within if the universe is embedded in another timechain. By architecture of Bitcoin, we can only deduce its necessity of time existing within time until you reach the genesis of all chains. I’m not sure what you mean by eternity. A discrete process that is infinite in run? I think we can grasp what we cannot compute since all thoughts are manifested from the higher order structure extratemporally to this ledger, which id argue we are only here because they too have Bitcoin to write our chain. Modernity loves simulation theory; how about a computation instantiation from the only computer network that can produce non-biased irreversible time, a p2p electronic cash system.
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asyncmind15d ago
What's the boundary? Inside elliptical curvespace or outside?
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Zsubmariner15d ago
Not just science, but the whole modern intellectual tradition that has been (surprise surprise) pretty much one to one with the rise of the usury system that took over wester civilization. Subjegation to Mammon. They've spent 800 years trying to rewrite St. Thomas in a way that writes God out of the story. I don't think they really made much of a dent. St. Thomas also knew that time was discrete. He also saw vertical causation, what we are calling signatures coming from above. He didn't described something called the aevum, not as nested time chains, but as nested rational intellects with wills, ordering principles, living superstructure, extending from the singular will of God to the time chain. Like light through a nine layer prism. They are outside of time, so they are unchanging and not embodied. God created this hierarchy of being above time to create, structure and sustain the world. Modern science has gathered a lot of data and descriptions, but it's been hobbled and twisted into nonsensical interpretations of things, trying to make material it's own cause, or turn God into a watch maker, rather than a loving, present, continuous creator. Our Father. In science, philosophy, theology, everything... the pervasive bias has been to get rid of God or make Him far away or turn ourselves into our own to god. Because of pride and shame and the love of sin. The usual father-avoiding reasons. But what a foolish thing to do. We are pretty amazing as we actually are. Even in our fallen state. God is the signer but He made us in His image too. We are also rational intellects with free will. And we get bodies here in creation. We get to grasp and cosign, or not, some of His order into being. The soul is a signing key in a multisig with God, cosigning transactions into the chain of creation. Hylomorohic.
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Jack K15d ago
A lot of this resonates. Any disagreement is language and its limitations. “aevum, not as nested time chains, but as nested rational intellects with wills, ordering principles, living superstructure, extending from the singular will of God to the time chain” What I’d say is we don’t know whether there is a timechain prior to ours, and we never will from inside this one. At best, we can say there is something outside our temporal sequence. Through the fractal lens of Bitcoin (universe within universe, time within time) we map that relationship backward, trying to reason about what our universe is embedded in. A kind of higher ledger. To me, aevum sounds like that higher ledger (im not educated here at all) but my assumption is that unless it mirrors our structure fractally, it starts to feel like an estimation layered on top of God rather than something organically continuous with the architecture we can actually observe. Hence the Ledger as the structure of all. But even the Ledger does not describe the Grand Signer who precedes all of time itself. It only reveals the structure from the side of what has already been committed from after. The Ledger shows us how order unfolds within time. It does not, and cannot, fully describe the One who signs before all time begins. From what I can gather, it would appear there is another layer/ledger of time prior to ours before true Genesis. We have run the free will question thru this framework 😵‍💫. It seems more about alignment. The only genuine freedom we have would be to accept or reject the fact that there is one true signer animating the system. We experience choice because we cannot peer beyond the horizon of our own ledger. From inside, it feels open and ours. From outside, it would be deterministic and animated from extratemporal consciousness (higher self, sub-conscious, aevum) Free will is “simulated” (I don’t like that word) precisely because we cannot peer beyond the event horizon. It’s more like constrained participation. We can align with the ordering principle or resist it. Whether we interpret that movement as “ours” or as participation in a higher will may simply be a function of vantage. All we can do is choose alignment or choose against the frequency from within the boundary we inhabit. It’s seemingly both if you can believe the choice was yours.
Jack K15d ago
That’s my point, Bitcoin is the only thing that produces non-biased irreversible temporal order with all observable behavior we see (superposition, entanglement, coherence, measurement). It produces it informationally rather than physically because we are exterior to Bitcoins ledger rather than interior to it. Epistemology from the outside (our experience of Bitcoin), Ontology from the inside (our experience of reality) Id add it’s more than money because it’s the whole ledger, money is just a part of the ledger and its operation.
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Teo15d ago
Initially you think, "I'm an acting being, my decisions shape the future, and a utxo is simply transferring wealth on our behalf, it doesn't even know what it's doing or why it's valuable." But then you start to realize that the most fundamental question for our own existence is "what is the meaning of all this?" We know that we transform energy into structure with our decisions, but we don't know why, how, or if that structure has actual value, meaning, or purpose. We have grown enough self- awareness throughout this process to be able to ask these questions, but will seemingly never be given access to the answers. At least not in this life.
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Jack K15d ago
The function between the two.
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asyncmind15d ago
Could be an isogeny function that provides smooth mapping into "reality" encoded state offchain
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Jack K15d ago
Temporally the valid nonce is the boundary. It’s the isomorphic function from potential to actual, or the intersection.
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Zsubmariner15d ago
Eternity is what precedes time. It's not discrete, infinite, and it does not run. Discrete time and compatibility can only exist in an intelligible way in the context of a timeless given order. The existence of time necessitates and uncaused cause and that the uncaused cause creates an order that precedes time. The rule must precede the block, causally. This is why I keep saying money is an ordering principle above the chain. Bitcoin is the money of angels. 🕊️
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Zsubmariner15d ago
Discrete = Finite Infinite = Continuous Noticing these definitional eauivalences is actually what got me over the line to discrete time. (Thank you again.)
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Teo15d ago
I've spent a lot of time thinking about what it means that God exists outside of time. It is obviously true, but hard to relate to because there is nothing to reference. Bitcoin may give us a fresh perspective on this.
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Zsubmariner15d ago
I think it does. We get a chance to stand outside an implementation of time and think about it's requirements. We still have to pick apart what is incidental to Bitcoin's implementation and what is essential. But what is irreducible there must be the metaphysical requirement of time from the outside. Still wildly hard to think about. Thinking itself is cognition, or computation, within the chain. There is no computation outside time
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Zsubmariner15d ago
It's true that there is no way to disprove the existence of higher time chains, implementing our chain the way that we implement Bitcoin. But there also isn't a reason to think there is, from a principle of least action perspective. (And PLA is maybe the strongest ordering principle we can see.) I think we can get a tiny bit further on first principles reason. I'm cheating though, because St. Thomas already did the work. :) Namely, we can say, whether there are higher chains or not, that outside the final chain is eternity. Eternity > Time Time requires eternity and higher order must exist for the order within the chain for the chain to be intelligible. The effect cannot be greater than the cause. We exist in eternity, by definition, and we grasp it directly, or we could not make sense of it's approximations here. Think about this: can you implement anything infinite or even truly continuous inside finite/discrete physical media? But you can implement finite time within eternity. The trouble with self-cause is that it's turtles all the way down. Only God can be the uncaused cause, by definition. He can't be fully comprehended by us from within the chain, as you say. (Though He could obviously take direct control of utxos of energy inside the chain. Christians believe that He did. The Incarnation.) Determinism is tricky because from outside the chain, God can see the whole chain and He is it's ultimate and necessary cause. Our perspective in discerning determinism from withing the chain is foreknowledge. If we can work it forward and backward in time, causally, we know that something is deterministic. So when we apply that rubric to imagining the perspective from above for God or eternal created beings in the Aevum, it looks deterministic to us, looking up, as it were. But the degree of freedom within the chain is whatever is allowed from above. It is not pre determined from withing causal time (from a within the horizontal, directional order). Horizontal determinism applied to vertical determinism is, well, orthogonal. The Thomistic take is that vertical beings in the aevum are also free, but being outside time their will was instantaneous (for lack of a better word) and eternal. Fixed from our perspecitve. The ordering principles either accepted or rejected the will of God upon their creation. These are what we call angels and fallen angels or daemons. The rational human intellect and it's grasp of good and evil are proof from first principles of free will. Arguing that the privation of the good (disorder) exists with the allowance of free will is to say that God is not things that He, definitionally and necessarily is: order itself, perfect, unitary, not contradictory, truth itself. The simpler way I said this to my little boy is "God allows us to do evil because if we couldn't choose and we couldn't be good, and God wouldn't be good if He did that, and that wouldn't be God." So I think we can say these things from first principles: God exists. He is the uncaused cause. He is intelligent. He creates the chain and is the source of its order from above (causally). The world depends on Him and not the other way around. He created us with rational intellects and free will. I am probably doing a horrible job here. I apologize for my insufficiency. If this was easy the Summa would be shorter and easy to read. :) ...I wonder if @Neal could possibly be enticed to correct me? (Be gentle.)
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Jack K15d ago
Yeah this is really outside domain so forgive me, I can only swing using the bitcoin lens applied to the chrono-logics of time. Could you define eternity by a discrete process that repeats itself (time begins a new) fractally forward? The chain grows longer from within itself. Bitcoin is infinite regress instantiated and contained. Side question; if you theoretically lived inside of Bitcoin, who would you call God? Satoshi? or those who write the chain through process? From inside the chain, how would you differentiate?
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Zsubmariner15d ago
I think I would distinguish between Satoshi's discovery of how to bind a ledger to thermodynamics using computers (because computers bind math to electricity, jeuls to discrets sets of operations), from God creating everything. There can only be (and must be) one uncaused cause. If Satoshi was God, that would be a second incarnation and that would contradict the first one. This kind of goes to why Bitcoin the medium has to be distinguished from money itself, the ordering principle that Bitcoin the physical object approximates.The infinite cannot be a product of the finite. The effect cannot be greater than the cause. It can't be circular. It can't be a fractal. It can't be turtles all the way down. That breaks first principles and then we wouldn't have an intelligible universe at all. Time can't implement itself. Time is created and can't be the creator.
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Zsubmariner15d ago
Fractals are very beautiful but they do not actually create themselves. They are a computational gateway and highly ordered and I love them, but God can't be a fractal. He is an absolute and necessary being. Fractals are a beautiful part of his order and it's no surprise that they feel kind of mystical to us. They do certainly point to the higher order, but can only be a feature of it.
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Neal14d ago
“Bitcoin is infinite regress instantiated and contained.” 🤔 What is the genesis block? That’s not an infinite regress.
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Teo14d ago
If bitcoin gives us fresh insight on the workings of our universe by showing quantized time, and allows us to reflect on our role in the process as it unfolds, including the possibility of a fractal order, and the original Creator, it's reassuring to see the immense value that it provides for us, and it's potential for healing and balancing the world. Perhaps bitcoin can give us a reference point for understanding our own existential value as well?
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Zsubmariner14d ago
I think that is right. Everything that makes a monetary medium work as a tool for coordinating our values in the world is based on how strong it is at holding to the ordering principle of the world we are trying to coordinate our valuing of. Hardness. Cryptography is the art of securing information. By securing the information of the medium to electricity with cryptography (including game theory) we got two things. Our ability to coordinate our values in our actions gets way better and we pull higher order into the world like never before. (So it makes us better and the world better.) And second, the fact that it does that proves that it is an accurate reflection of the higher order that orders the physical world. (So it's a mirror of the ordering of the physical world.) That last part I didn't get until Jack and Nick noticed that and started to get the message out, and I think it's a huge accomplishment on their part. Props to @Jack K and @6618ebde…b5cc5922
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