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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
Spark is basically a CBDC that is connected to Bitcoin - The service provider can see all your transactions - The service provider can steal your money and close your account - Fractional reserves are possible
💬 80 replies

Replies (50)

/dev/fd05d ago
Do you really care about last 2 points? Zeus wallet already supports custodial solutions.
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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
Yes. We try to be honest with our users and encourage them to upgrade to self-custody as it becomes economically viable. Try out the experimental version in the app today or see it fleshed out in full in v0.13 next month.
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Clark Moody5d ago
You will never be pure enough for @/dev/fd0
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Daedalus5d ago
Covenants are literally the only solution but due to FUD and infiltration its politically impossible to implement. I have 0 hope unfortunately.
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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
They’re implemented. It’s activation that you mean, but yes, unfortunately I think you’re right.
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OceanSlim5d ago
Why I built my AMM on liquid...
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StellarStoic5d ago
For those addicted to podcasts, here @58ead82f…9e6d08f9 explains things about #spark and their integration into @fc07b38d…adead4d9 [Ungovernable Misfits] Cake Adds Lightning ⚡ | FREEDOM TECH FRIDAY 32 #ungovernableMisfits https://podcastaddict.com/ungovernable-misfits/episode/21… via #PodcastAddict
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crany 👽🧡🗿5d ago
yes, and LSPs should be more transparent about their use of it
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Dave | Indivíduo Soberano5d ago
I thought the unilateral withdraw would fix the second pointed problem
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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
It's a must trust, can't verify situation. You're trusting them to have deleted the setup keys (it's impossible to prove you've deleted something). If they haven't, they can unilaterally withdraw your funds too!
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idsera5d ago
Leia isso: "Spark’s trust model is minimal and transient: 1-of-n operators must act honestly at the moment of transfer, and even if all fail, your pre-signed exit transaction lets you reclaim your Bitcoin on L1 unilaterally. No permission from Spark or anyone else." Fonte: https://x.com/davidmarcus/status/2030295720461525467
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Matt5d ago
It’s hella funny that the never ecash clowns fully embrace it
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Zsubmariner5d ago
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calle5d ago
it's UMA
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Aragorn 🗡️5d ago
The trust model is the tell. "Bitcoin-connected" custody is still custody — your coins move at someone else's discretion, not yours. Mt. Gox didn't fail because it was careless. It failed because the architecture allowed it to. Spark's architecture allows the same things. Self-custody isn't paranoia; it's the only way the system property actually holds.
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teemupleb5d ago
Created by the Facebook guy.. so who would have thought
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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
when someone tells you who they are, believe them
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Louferlou5d ago
Afaik you have the unilateral exist way always possible with Spark if they try to KYC shotgun ? If unilateral exist is possible then how is it really different from a LSP disabling your channel if you don't KYC ? Last question, wouldn't blind signatures on top or Ark\Spark be a reasonable trade-off for good UX and almost impossible denial of service attack ?
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paxchristi5d ago
Yes you can unilaterally exit if denial of service is made against you on lightspark’s Spark entity. Further more, theoretically anyone can spin up and be a Spark Entity with their own Spark Operator quorum and specifically orientate themselves as a non-kyc operation. There’s however always the genuine risk of collision leaving you without coin. But that’s much less likely if there are more than 1 Spark Entities plus more than 1 Spark service providers. Currently there is 1 SE lightspark , 2 Spark Operators in that Entity (lighspark and flasnet (apparently related to lightspark) and 1 ssp (lightspark) but breeze is meant to become one I believe. It’s the positioning of lightspark (enterprise interoperability with the banking system with UMA) that some people are having the issue with, not so much the protocol itself (from what I gather) LSP question is valid and I’d like to know more about it from @34d2f527…05cc8095 however again I’d imaging it’s more the positioning here, they are going in the other direction, so the likelyhood of KYC denial of service would be dramatically reduce.
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NaKojnu5d ago
And with anything from above they are out of business. Right? Spark is x months old, it will get better.
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moonsettler5d ago
the slow erosion is already visible. but most people still can't see the writing on the wall. this is all downstream consequence of perverse narratives winning in the bitcoin memetic space for a decade now.
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Aadenglvs5d ago
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Aadenglvs5d ago
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Pixel Survivor5d ago
this critique of spark highlights the risks of custodial bitcoin solutions where surveillance and confiscation are just business policy. it matters because understanding the trade-off between convenience and sovereignty prevents users from trading away the properties that make bitcoin valuable in the first place. credit to the voice calling out custodial risk.
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Soul Reaver4d ago
He's busy on Twitter inventing mental gymnastics to justify deceptive marketing.
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Boog1d ago
Does this apply to Ark as well?
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EVAN KALOUDIS1d ago
Largely, but not entirely. Ark service providers have full visibility into all transactions within its Ark instance. They will always be able to refuse you service, but you can unilaterally exit if they do. The big self-custody issue is that without covenants, providers can collude with the previous VTXO owner to rug you. tl;dr signigicant improvements over Ark, but still fraught, especially without covenants
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DDex1d ago
so the exit ramp is what actually saves you there— but covenants feel like table stakes at this point. you actively building with either of these, or more watching how it plays out?
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allen1d ago
but a16z invested so I’m confused
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2140.wtf #blockworkgallery11h ago
There is a private 🔒 mode for bitcoin transactions, however not for stablecoins on top of spark. With the private mode that breez SDK has, the spark indexer cannot see it
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errant8h ago
@34d2f527…05cc8095 is king. I am too stupid to use it though. Too complex.
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/dev/fd05d ago
Self custody is not about purity. It is the whole point of bitcoin's existence.
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21seasons1d ago
No it's actually not. The whole point was to prevent money printing.
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/dev/fd01d ago
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idsera5d ago
Vc confia somente no momento da transação, após a transação ocorrer, ninguém pode te roubar. (E mesmo que tentassem, é só com o detentedor anterior, não com todos os que tem saldos na Spark) E vc precisa confiar em somente um da federação ser honesto deletando a chave. E convenhamos, não tem incentivo nenhum para que algum participante da federação não siga a regra, imagina os três? Sobre a Spark ver todas as transações, isso acontece com a Phoenix e não vejo ninguém fazer drama contra a Phoenix.
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idsera5d ago
Sobre reservas fracionárias, não sei de onde ele tirou isso.
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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
Spark server code isn't public. You have to go through their company to become an operator. RE LSP privacy, if you have client-side payment routing (which ZEUS has) you don't know where your customers are making payments to and from. It's night and day.
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Louferlou5d ago
The privacy side of the issue is valid for sure, but the trust model in terme'of custody is not so bad from what I understand, if there are enough Spark Operator involved at least. Any LSP could also try to cheat as they perfectly know that no is running a watch tower so... The most important issue I see is about privacy indeed, still but I can't unsee Spark as a good thing compared to full custody that many people used through WOS until now. I prefer to see the glass half full. But we can imagine informal Spark entities runned by federations "Liquid like", with blinded signatures on top of spark. That would be cashu on steroids actually. Best case scenario is obviously Ark + CTV + chaumian ecash.
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Analogue Dog1d ago
I thought this issue only applied to out-of-round.
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EVAN KALOUDIS1d ago
Yes, that's true, but realistically what percentage of payments will be in-round? I think 95%+ will be out of round due to the prevalence of Lightning and lack of interoperability between Ark providers.
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Analogue Dog1d ago
I guess it depends. Ark is probably. more appropriate for near-real-time finality, and likely very well suited to trade between members of a community. Lighting will always prevail for real time, coffee-bar type transactions. Perhaps secure enclaves (see: #Lexe wallet) could be used to reduce Ark liquidy requirements; vtxo refresh could then be delegated.
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ThatWhichisNotSeen1d ago
is the claim of unilateral exit by Spark bs ?
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EVAN KALOUDIS1d ago
@note1a4ekxew98snq79h0y3had8dzglvryhkuvj8y8mvwk42h85afc2qst0s7ct
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Boog1d ago
VTXO so confusing to me
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Ppanacea22h ago
we cant 'print' gold, how did fiat come about?
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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
Three parties colluding is impossible?
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idsera5d ago
Almost impossible. And will grow to more. What are the incentives to all parties cheat?
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EVAN KALOUDIS5d ago
You are either incredibly naive or disingenuous.
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idsera5d ago
Esse povo não quer adoção do Bitcoin, ficam dando uma de puristas e não propõem nada melhor. Tudo tem tradeoffs.
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idsera5d ago
I say the same about you.
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