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jb55320d ago
I’m always going to use a core implementation with the highest level of technical ability and knowledge of its systems. Right now that is the current core volunteers. core is a meritocracy not a democracy. There is simply no other group of people that outmatch the current set of maintainers. sipa alone knows more about bitcoin internals than most people on the planet.
💬 41 replies

Replies (41)

mike320d ago
What is your view on the OP_RETURN debate?
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jb55320d ago
yes, i don’t want retards maintaining my money. I definitely want experts who have been thinking adversarially in this space longer than me.
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jb55320d ago
Your exact thought process lead to bitcoin cash, and how did that go?
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jb55320d ago
noone is removing OP_RETURN? what?
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jb55320d ago
the code that checks the limit is ineffective, inscriptions got around it via the witness trick. anytime it is tweaked it can be worked around, usually at the the cost of UTXO bloat. I used to be in favor of it but I have since been convinced by core devs otherwise.
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jb55320d ago
simply not true, how did inscriptions work then? how did they get around the limits and put jpgs in?
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jb55320d ago
since there are ways around it, and OP_RETURNs don't add any utxo bloat, and the person making the transaction has to pay a fee... i think that storing data this way is unsustainable, so its really a non-issue. in reality this whole debate is node operators thinking they have control of something that economics will sort out by itself. the setting has basically no effect, as most node running use default settings... so whats the point again? deluding yourself and making yourself feel good that you are doing your part to save bitcoin from people putting stupid shit in transactions when in reality you have no real control over this? great. yawn.
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jb55320d ago
bro implemented libsecp256k1, segwit, taproot, miniscript, and is working on cluster mempool algorithms as we speak?
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jb55320d ago
wat? git author-stats --no-merges v26.0..v29.0 | tac | head | cat -n https://cdn.jb55.com/s/036ba96eba44ce7d.txt
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jb55320d ago
what's the difference? he's is just a guy who ships code. unless you're talking about people who only merge code, I don't think sipa was ever a maintainer in that sense.
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jb55320d ago
ok I use maintainers and contributors interchangeably, my bad
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jb55320d ago
are you going to make a technical argument or just an alex jones-like tirade?
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jb55320d ago
i don’t know his central point, is it written somewhere?
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jb55320d ago
LOL
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jb55320d ago
why u so mad. you can literally run any version of the code you want
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jb55320d ago
i dunno man maybe i just can’t imagine getting this worked up over a mempool relay setting.
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jb55320d ago
I guess I’m too stupid to understand why people would be upset about this
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jb55320d ago
wasn’t this point ultimately proven wrong once the inscribers ended up burning all their bitcoin? and a catch and mouse game with spammers was ultimately a waste of time ? We have a clean way for adding data to bitcoin without bloating the utxoset, shouldn’t we encourage people to use that instead of retarded stuff like witness data ? Since you can’t stop people from doing consensus compatible retarded things? At least that was my recollection… it’s been awhile.
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mike319d ago
Thank you
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mike319d ago
Nodes don't matter! Are you a BCH or BSV guy? 😂
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Rico319d ago
I don't see the argument against larger op returns because nobody will track down small miners / pools to have their custom block mined being particularly strong as this is what happens already. Centralization in that regard is the current status quo, whoever wants crazy blocks mined can do it with our without opreturns changes. I could turn the argument around saying that larger op returns would make those custom blocks unnecessary because the goal to host data on the blockchain can be achieved now without such manipulation. But then again, as stated by gmaxwell, there are interest groups who just like to have a block for themselves printing MARA in the mempool.space thumbnail and whatnot and they will AND CAN do it no matter the op return field. How does a larger op return field change that in any way?
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mike319d ago
Ah BSV 👍 How’s Craig doing these days? Also I presume you started out with BCH, give Roger my regards when you next see him. I’ve just bought a house on St. Kitts, I’m sure he misses the old place 😂
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mike319d ago
No, my predecessors did that between 2015 - 2017.
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mike319d ago
GM 🫂
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mike319d ago
Thank you for this contribution. Sadly, I don't understand anything your saying and you seem to be agreeing with my point while telling me I'm wrong. Forget the cat JPEGs, we do want to stop these, but we are agreed that OP_RETURN makes no difference to this. Why does Core want to eliminate the OP_RETURN limit (libre relay already has) and what are bridges and what have bridges got to do with this. I would appreciate understanding this if you are able to explain and have the time.
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Sjors Provoost319d ago
To cite Roger Ver: > The market determines the ideal block size and network fee. https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/errkm2/the_market_d…
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jb55319d ago
oh yeah I didn't mean to imply the witness data itself is stored in the utxo set, but utxos are created
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jb55319d ago
the jpegs were just an example, I'm not saying people would be using jpegs in OP_RETURN instead
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Contra316d ago
You don’t trust core because of titles…you trust it because it consistently ships the most robust, peer-reviewed code in the ecosystem. It’s earned that respect….
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Printer315d ago
Slipstream by Mara
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mike320d ago
Let’s not have moot side arguments trying to prove how much we know. For me, as a node runner, you have to convince me to run your code. If one side is open and the other side is closed, I only hear one side and my choice is forced. This, for me at least, is the “core” of the argument.
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jb55320d ago
What is the alternative?
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mike320d ago
I was describing a principle here, but as you know, we are choosing Knots as an alternative.
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jb55320d ago
I like luke for his contrarian nature but the idea of him in charge of the future of bitcoin is bit much. He is the defacto leader of knots and noone could really appose him.
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jb55319d ago
The utxoset size is *permanent* it can’t be pruned like other block data unless you consolidate the spend into a smaller set of utxos basically think of them as a coin purse where if you put two coins in, the only way to shrink the bag is to spend to coins with no change. JPEGs in witness data means that they will likely be unspendable, meaning that there is a permanent storage increase requirement on all nodes. But they are no provably unspendable so you can’t discard them from the coin purse. This is really bad. OP_RETURNs are *provably* unspendable, meaning they can be ignored from the utxoset perspective (never goes in the coin purse) By trying to stop both witness jpegs and large OP_RETURN pushes, it will push people to do even worse things like large multisigs that stores data in the signatures. This is how the whitepaper is permanently stored in the utxoset. This is even worse for utxo bloat. At this point the censor proponents would say well thats not economically viable… but none of these methods really is. Some are cheaper than others, sure, but overall it’s still the most expensive data storage out there. People have to burn the hardest money on the planet if they want to play stupid games. The point is people are going to store data anyway, the *least bad* is OP_RETURN, because it minimizes the *permanent* storage burden on pruned nodes.
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mike320d ago
That’s not really the point I’m making. As I said if I only hear one voice, I’ll listen to it. If that voice goes uncontested, I follow it. I always want to hear both sides. I’m not hearing both sides. I’m a node runner, core needs to convince me there is a valid counter argument, otherwise I am forced to make ill informed decisions.
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jb55320d ago
we'll you're hearing my side. I am a bitcoin core contributor. there aren't many of us. we are outnumbered millions to a couple dozen at most ? you will naturally mostly hear the crowd when we are this outnumbered. I think there is a valid counter argument: I have yet to see anyone point out why the setting matters when you can get around it via witness data (like how inscriptions abused the network) unrestricted OP_RETURN is strictly better since those are provably unspendable, meaning you don't need to permanently bloat the utxo set. if people are going to do it anyway and you can't stop it without a hardfork, then removing the restriction so people don't do dumber things that hurt the network even more is better is it not?
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mike320d ago
Pass friend, thank you for starting to state a counter argument. I will listen fully, but I don’t fully understand what you’re saying. I’m not sure what you mean by “I have yet to see anyone point out why the setting matters” It’s late in the UK, I’m going to bed, but both you and Jameson have started to state a counter argument, so I will listen. Thank you.
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mike319d ago
GM, It's 639am UK time, and I didn't sleep much last night. I got up to write this, then I'm going back to bed, I still won't sleep much. First of all, thank you Will, for all you do, both on Core and on NOSTR. I don't do much myself, but I have done my fair share to change the world in my life. I am mostly a passenger now, but I promise I have earned my position at the top table for oversight of the world as it changes. Once again, I deeply respect and admire you and everything you do. My understanding of your statement is you can do this anyway via another method, so what’s the problem allowing this to happen via OP_RETURN. This is bad, please allow me to set out my stall. I don’t want to store cat JPEGs or inscribed love letters on my nodes. Bitcoin is a financial transaction system, that is all. I appreciate it has always been possible to inscribe data on the blockchain from the genesis blocks “Banks on Brink of second collapse” to Len Sassaman’s ASCII art image. But taproot, in an effort to optimise storage and move closer towards a Turing complete engine by creating and combining scripts within Merkle trees, gave an unintended consequence. Cat JPEGs stored natively on the blockchain. This exists, we can’t stop it, many parties, including miners and NFT artists want this. I don’t. Let Ethereum have the monopoly on cat JPEGs, I’m not looking to compete with Ethereum. That is my 3 - 5 votes out of 20,000+ active nodes at any time. So, we are here, we have cat JPEGs and we have love poems stored on the blockchain, so allowing love poems in the OP_RETURN doesn’t matter because we can do this anyway. I disagree. For me we need to be making it harder to store cat JPEGs and love poems, not easier and continue to do this granularly until it is eliminated. That is the direction I want to head in. So my question is, what can’t we do with the blockchain that we would be able to do with an unrestricted OP_RETURN. If you don’t know the answer, that’s fine, just because you’re a core developer doesn’t give you the ability to read somebody else’s mind. The other argument I’ve seen from Lopp is that he has a lot of Bitcoin and not much shareholding in Citrea, the company pushing for this change. Why would he damage his Bitcoin for such a small company. This argument also, doesn’t hold water. Nobody expected Taproot would allow anybody to store cat JPEGs, the unintended consequences of change is always there. I am in no way a developer, but I did code back in the 1980’s to early 90’s. I built, ran and maintained a Hungarian mainframe called a VT6000 based on Bull Mitre architecture for our global public electronics company, “Densitron”, which my father founded and still exists today inside one of my other companies. The machine ran MMT2 O/S and COBOL compiler. I was one of two people extending the functionality of a global accounting, stock control and ordering system called RelAcs (Real Time Accounting System). My colleague, a Hungarian called Charlie Lugosi was highly skilled, way beyond my limited abilities. We both broke the system in every conceivable way countless times trying to improve or maintain either the machines micro-code, the OS or the applications.The machine had 2 x 300MB CDC disks, 1MB RAM and a 2MB cache. It supported up to 16 dumb terminals. By comparison, modern code like Bitcoin is unimaginably more complex, but the principles still apply. You never fully understand the consequences of a change until it is in production and being used in the real world. Jameson Lopp would absolutely break Bitcoin if it benefitted him, somebody broke Bitcoin to allow cat JPEGs, probably unintentionally. Somebody let a virus out of a lab in China, probably unintentionally. Unless there is a very good reason to reduce the restriction on OP_RETURN size, then we don’t do it, because nobody knows what the consequences of this is, and Bitcoin core developers have no special insights that non core devs don’t. And Bitcoin code, by nature is very conservative. Which is why Taproot caused more problems than it fixed. As a core developer, if you are now involving yourself directly. If you don’t know “why” we want to remove the OP_RETURN limit, you should be finding out, not discussing “well it’s broken anyway, what harm can it do” with idiots like me. I am a voter and a customer and a user of your Core software, I can vote with my node and give my "free" business to other Bitcoin suppliers like Knots. I and my colleagues are who you are working for, albeit selflessly and unpaid. I am the one you are your core colleagues are accountable to. If you are fully open and honest with us, you have our respect, support and admiration, if you treat us like we don't matter, we all leave and you are left in an empty ivory tower.
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Melvin Carvalho319d ago
I see both sides here. Taproot had unintended consequences — one of which is Nostr. Nostr identity is based on the Taproot BIP, and it's given Bitcoin the beginnings of a social layer. There’s a difference between maintenance and renovation. You maintain a school by mopping the floors; you renovate it by adding a new door to a corridor. In any system or standard, there’s always a grey area between minor maintenance changes and behaviour-altering changes. At the W3C, we have something called “class 2” changes — used for typos, improved examples, and other edits that don’t affect behaviour. They follow a lightweight process. Larger changes are “class 3” and go through wider review. It’s common to see people try to pass class 3 changes off as class 2 — but the rule is: if there’s disagreement, it’s not class 2. (Of course, who defines disagreement is a whole other problem.) Bitcoin might benefit from a similar distinction: separating maintenance from behavioural changes, and handling them with different levels of review and process. Discussion is always good in these situations.
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