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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
Today we're going to talk a little bit about cryptography. This applies to Monero but also to Zcash, although in a slightly different way, but I'll stick to Monero. I am not saying that Monero is not private; in fact, it is very private. I am not going to deny the obvious, but I am going to explain why, in my opinion, Monero is not a good place to keep your savings for decades. I will try not to get too technical so that it is easy to understand. In Monero, two different things must be separated when auditing its supply: 1- Auditing how much XMR has been issued through mining (coinbase): This can be verified with a node (and is reproducible), because the protocol defines how much each block can pay, and the node can add up the coinbase rewards. This gives you a verifiable number of emissions per block. Adding coinbase is useful for mining issuance, but on its own it does not prove that coins have never been created due to a failure in private transactions. 2- Auditing that there was never hidden inflation in transactions Here, the honest answer is that it cannot be done with absolute certainty in the sense of being 100% mathematically provable by looking at the chain as public accounting, because Monero hides the amounts. In Monero's official post on supply auditability, they say it as it is: in opaque assets such as Monero or Zcash shielded, it is not possible to simply count the available supply, and therefore there is a risk of implementation flaws leading to undetectable inflation, flaws that could allow inflation undetectable by simple public accounting. They even conclude with the key idea: if you need absolute assurance of supply, that pushes you towards a transparent asset; if you hide amounts, you are shifting the assurance to the correctness of the proof/signature system. So how does Monero prevent inflation on a day-to-day basis? The nodes do verify that each transaction adds up, but they do so with cryptography: - In RingCT, the consensus verifies a balance equation in commitments (Pedersen commitments). - And it also uses range proofs (today Bulletproofs/Bulletproofs+) to ensure that the committed amounts are positive/in range and that you cannot sneak in negative or out-of-range values to fabricate money. In other words, if we assume that these proofs are correct and that the cryptographic assumptions hold, you should not be able to inflate the supply without the nodes rejecting it. Why is it still not absolute certainty? Because, as in Zcash Sprout, the hard problem is that if there were a soundness flaw or an implementation bug that allowed invalid but accepted proofs to be generated, the inflation could be undetectable to an outside observer who is just trying to add up coins, precisely because the amounts are hidden. So if there really was undetected inflation, then it is plausible that the cryptographic checks/tests as implemented at the time would not have detected it either. And, depending on the type of flaw, there is no guarantee that you can detect it retroactively today either. For this reason, Bitcoin did not and will not adopt these privacy methods because they would destroy one of its main features, the 100% verifiable supply.
💬 32 replies

Replies (32)

Papa Figos60d ago
You're already trusting thousands of pieces built on more thousands of pieces for bitcoin to work. With #monero, it's all that plus a few equations. For great privacy, I'll take my chances. And by the way, even Satoshi recognized the lack of privacy in Bitcoin and felt that it needed to be addressed, but the tech didn't exist back then. It's more a matter of an ultra conservative bitcoin culture these days, but forget even that, **it's about the fact that bitcoin has been captured and assimilated into the system it sought to deprecate**, and the only reason that ever happened is that **like the legacy financial system, it is a tool for control, and you cannot have control without surveillance, and you cannot have surveillance without a backdoor or, even better, full transparency**. And then, if bitcoin actually revolted and reminded itself (so to speak) of its cypherpunk roots (huh, Mr. Cypherpunk?), privacy and anonymity would be baked in - but that would be the immediate end of all your NGU fanatics' dreams. So, it's not gonna happen. And that's alright. Bitcoin can be the harmless NGU money machine - hey, I like that too. But I came to crypto for freedom and privacy like so many others. Bitcoin delivers NGU, and that's great, but it's a golden cage -- **wealth without privacy is a dangerous combination**. #monero delivers a frontal *fuck you* to the system of financial control and repression we live under. It does not play by the rules. It stands by what is right and true. And so it's been unplugged from the shadows from the legacy system. **Because it works**. Therefore, any serious freedom-loving people have found and continue to find #monero - we are thankful for bitcoin's service, but without anonymity & privacy, **as the original cypherpunks knew**, it will always fall short of the old cypherpunkian dream: **anonymous, private digital cash**. #monero *is* that. not tomorrow, *today*.
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ManyKeys60d ago
This all sounds nice but fall apart with one malicious sender.
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Papa Figos60d ago
do you want to back that up with an actual argument?
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
Despite the differences, it acts roughly like a coinjoin, but it is actually much better. That said, another proof that the supply is not verifiable is that we cannot perform sidechains such as Liquid with Monero's characteristics, nor drivechains (if we could) with Monero's characteristics, because we could not guarantee that 1 BTC = 1 BTC in the sidechain or drivechain; the relationship could be broken at any time.
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Papa Figos60d ago
The supply is verifiable. Monero nodes verify the supply all day and night long.
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Papa Figos60d ago
Nah dude, I get it. From hardware to compilers to libraries to algorithms and everything else. Also the sheer amount of "simple" cryptography that very few actually understand and can accurately mentally model. That's a given, usually not mentioned to simplify the conversation.
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
There are things like Ring Signatures that already existed, other things came up later but had certainly never been implemented. At the time, there was also a conversation in Bitcoin about why all this wasn't being implemented, and the answer is the same as I explained above: if we implement this, then we can no longer guarantee that there will be a maximum of 21 million Bitcoins. The problem with hidden inflation is that it can occur without you realizing it, no matter how many cryptographic proofs you have in place to prevent it. It is a risk, hence the privacy-verifiability duality.
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
Things haven't changed. All privacy coins that hide amounts, including the Liquid sidechain, are vulnerable to hidden inflation problems. I'm surprised that Monero's own followers deny this when it's clearly stated on their own website. And I'm not basing my opinion on what the website says, I'm basing it on the technology. I also see that many people are expressing opinions about computer science when they're not even professionals in the field.
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TheFuzzStone60d ago
I hope you don't forget to include to the last Bitcoin as well.
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atyh60d ago
same reason there are fights at football tournaments. dudes are retarded. 🤓
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atyh59d ago
im on the grey retard team. all the magenta retards must be crushed. i mean who likes magenta but criminals and soyboys?
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Ryan59d ago
See also religion, vehicle brands, operating systems, text editors, or anything else you can dream of really. People love tribing up. It's in our nature. Then the Internet ramps it way up. Lack of clues like body language lead to misinterpreted text comms. Removing the fear of being punched in the face also lets people talk in ways they never would in person. Maybe the Internet was a mistake 🤣
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atyh59d ago
i use emacs and vim. sometimes on the same day. come at me bro.
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SuiGenerisJohn59d ago
Agreed
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Saberhagen The Nameless59d ago
Not exactly technically but maybe "default coinjoin" is a useful analogy when explaining it to someone newer... though unlike coinjoins, amounts are hidden and address reuse on-chain is made impossible.
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ManyKeys60d ago
Decoy-analysis heuristucs uses basic statistical heuristics to strip away unlikely decoys in a ring and isolate the real spend, an approach that does not break cryptography but is trivial for a state-level adversary with ample data and resources to execute at scale.
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
Or rather, the Monero Bros don't understand this part either. They only understand black and white; they don't understand that Monero is neither 100% private nor 100% auditable.
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Papa Figos60d ago
As always, you assume too much. You project your own ignorance onto others. It's like you don't even actually *read* what other people write, since you already know from the start that you must be right and superior, so why bother, right?
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Papa Figos60d ago
Fair enough. There are many ways (and pitfalls) to reduce the likelihood of such methods being effective, some of which you have control over as a user, some of which you don't. But I think we can both agree it is desirable that those extra cares/steps should not be necessary, correct? Well, as luck would have it, Monero devs agree too, which is why FCMP++ will come soon™. In that new arrangement, do you still find fault with the system? Ring signatures are the weakest part right now, good enough for most cases perhaps, but not good enough for what Monero aspires to be - and this is why "upgrading" the scheme was prioritized.
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
You simply haven't understood anything in the article I've presented because you don't have enough technical knowledge, or you're slow, or you lack reading comprehension.
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Papa Figos60d ago
Oh, I understand perfectly. You're rehashing the same old arguments. Yes, anyone with two neurons understands you have to trust a few extra equations. If those hold, you can validate the supply, which as I said, is what Monero nodes do all day long. It's not a great revelation bourne of a superior intellect that if the equations don't hold, the assumptions that rest on their validity will break. It's a redundant statement of fact.
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
You just don't understand anything. You don't understand that there is no such thing as 100% verifiable supply certainty and that Bitcoin cannot afford that. But hey, I understand that you're retarded, it's normal.
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Ryan59d ago
notepad.exe for life. Thank God for wine.
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ManyKeys60d ago
Love the project; eager to see how that unravels.
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Papa Figos60d ago
same, man.
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Papa Figos60d ago
And yet it's Bitcoin who's suffered from inflation bugs already and had to hard fork to rollback. All that transparency and "100% certainty" and what was the end result? Luckily enough it happened early on and no one cared, and fewer still even remember. If that happened again today, do you think, with all the stuff built on top of it, that it would be another simple "oopsie!" followed by another hard fork? Your argument: we need transparency to be 100% sure no supply inflation has happened! My response: 100% certainty that the supply *was* inflated doesn't save you, it's game over, even if you detect it. This being the case, why suffer from the *many* problems that deficient privacy/anonymity brings? In your rigid mind, there is no argument for it. You **presume** to know better, **when even Satoshi himself said he would've added better privacy had he known how to**. You are not as smart as you think you are, and you lack a great deal of humility too (a fatal combination).
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
Arguing with you is like arguing that 1+1 does not equal two. You have no humility because you are stupid, yet you are here to give lessons. You are so obtuse that you do not understand that inflation bugs can occur in Monero that are not detected by cryptographic proofs, and there is no absolute certainty that this is not happening. You are giving your opinion on computer science, and you are probably a plumber, haha.
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Papa Figos60d ago
Are you literally retarded, or are you arguing in bad faith? I've already run down the whole scenario for you in the previous replies. equations hold = you can verify supply equations don't hold = you cannot in Monero it's always a risk that in the end someone finds a way to violate the assumptions and can inflate the supply. in Bitcoin it's simpler but it can happen and *has happened* (supply inflation). and you didn't answer my question - are you smarter than Satoshi, who was clearly troubled by the lack of privacy in Bitcoin and understood it wasn't enough? or smarter than Hal Finney who realized after about, erm, *one* transaction that Bitcoin needed more privacy too? and yet here you are, years afterwards, and you *still* cannot see it. but it's *others* who are "stupid" and "ignorant". you literally think you know better than Hal Finney, Satoshi, and all the O.G cypherpunks who knew that a digital cash without privacy would not work. the sheer arrogance!
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Cyph3rp9nk60d ago
Stop giving your opinion on cryptography, which you don't understand, and stick to your job.
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Papa Figos60d ago
That's all you do, isn't it? Move the goalposts, throw insults, divert, deflect, distract, evade. You think it makes you look smart, it just reveals your hubris and insecurity. You turn everything into a personal argument and constantly insult others, always think you're more than, better than - when in reality you can't have a simple, rational argument without your emotions poisoning the well. One doesn't need to understand much about psychology to realize where it all comes from. Really ask yourself one of those days why you feel the need to feel superior all the time. It might just be the beginning of wisdom for you.
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