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Undisciplined2d ago
What is it that could be accomplished in Iran that you would consider the costs worth it? And, how many regime change attempts have to go badly before we can say they should stop attempting it? Also, why do they deserve the benefit of the doubt? I’d say the US track record is such that there’s a very high burden on them to convince us that an intervention is prudent. https://fountain.fm/episode/9Q6Rt0PH7d5N0GYEXWyn 📝 0677fd7e…
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Replies (19)

MAHDOOD2d ago
Nothing is worth justifying theft via inflation and murder of innocent people
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Undisciplined2d ago
That’s my view, but I’m trying to understand where Chris is coming from. Normally, I can follow his reasoning. Here I just don’t see why he’s so worked up about the antiwar people.
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Chris Liss2d ago
I don’t know if it’s prudent — I just don’t have good enough information. But Trump has been successful with foreign policy thus far and doesn’t seem to want an Iraq style occupation with its attendant costs. So I give the benefit of the doubt and see how it goes. If it goes well I’m for it. If it goes badly I’m against it. And by well I mean advances American people’s interests. And by badly I mean the opposite.
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MAHDOOD2d ago
He’s very much pro state
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Undisciplined2d ago
By my read, he's much less pro state than average
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MAHDOOD2d ago
Average normie I guess. The average nostr pleb? No way
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Undisciplined2d ago
The American people wanted the government to stop spending billions of dollars on these endless conflicts in the Middle East, so it seems antithetical to America's interests on its face. This is why his approval is plummeting.
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Chris Liss2d ago
If the price tag is high, or the war goes on a long time, it'll probably turn out to be against our interests. But you're begging the question. Assuming it goes on a long time, and assuming it's not in our interest, then it's not in our interest. But if it goes on a short time, and the benefit is worth the cost then it is in our interest.
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Undisciplined2d ago
Those are two very different curves to grade on
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MAHDOOD2d ago
Depends which context you’re talking about
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Undisciplined2d ago
It's already billions of dollars and thousands dead. That is sufficient to be against my interests, which are peace and prosperity, and anyone who supported Trump because of his fairly consistent position of being against these conflicts is right to be pissed. I don't see it as much more complex than this: Them: Give us billions of dollars to kill a bunch of people on the other side of the planet. Us: Why? Them: You'll just have to see how it works out. Us: Fuck you. No. It seems to me that you're putting the burden of proof entirely in the wrong place. The people intending to take your money and use it to kill people are the ones who need to justify their actions, all the more so when they have previously said acting in that way is dumb and wasteful. Opposing them should be the default position.
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Chris Liss2d ago
My position is I don't know. The burden of proof is on both sides -- someone saying this is a mistake and someone saying this is good. The point I was making in the podcast was not that "yes, this is worth it," but that most people are operating from a stance of whatever makes them feel good about themselves. If you're a rah rah patriot that thinks someone finally had the balls to do something about these theocratic local bullies, you feel good that Trump is taking them out. You believe it's for the greater good. If you're an anti-war libertarian that thinks the state is always up to no good, no matter the bullshit justification, you feel good opposing the operation. I'm just saying I don't know, and in such cases, I'm fine to just let things play out before having an opinion on them. It doesn't make you a good person to speak out against the war, or a bad person to cheer it on, hoping for success. It doesn't mean shit. We'll find out eventually one way or the other.
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Undisciplined2d ago
That wouldn't be your attitude if they were pushing a new vaccine mandate. You'd be opposed to it before all the facts come in. I don't think that's because you want to be on the "good" side. Similarly, I'm not opposed to what they're doing in Iran to feel good and I don't think that's a fair criticism. Iran has been the Neocons' target, publicly, for 30 years, with all the other disasters being precursors to it. Considering the same people who championed those are championing this, I don't see how it's different than if Fauci came out with another experimental injection for all of us. It's fine to be opposed to something based on principles and experience before all the facts are known (which they won't/can't ever be, as you also discussed). Just like with the jabs, you can say "Based on what they've offered as justification, this is not a good idea." Maybe things work out totally differently and there were unstated motives, but that's not relevant to how we make decisions about the future.
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Chris Liss2d ago
That's fair, but I think there's a big difference between the jabs which involve me directly, literally injecting something into my bloodstream, and a foreign policy operation going on overseas I might oppose based on what I read in the news. And I was opposed to the mandates before the information was known, but I wasn't opposed to people electing to take the shot if they felt like it, nor did I try to argue them out of it. I really didn't know. My opposition was initially only to that it was mandated. Now I think it's poison that should be taken off the market.
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Undisciplined2d ago
Ok, in that light why shouldn't we oppose the spending on this military action? Either that involves taking our money through taxes or inflating away the value of our savings, both of which are direct effects on each of us and they've made no serious attempt to justify why it needs to be done.
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Chris Liss2d ago
Everything the government does costs money. If it builds a bridge, that costs money. But maybe that bridge is a good investment. Same with the Venezuela operation. Everyone who is so sure this will be a disaster was saying the exact same thing about that. So of course you can oppose or support it if you like. My point was personally I will only support it if it turns out to be successful and only oppose it if it goes bad. And I don't know yet, so I'm agnostic, and I don't think it's good or bad to support or oppose or be agnostic to things, and when you remove the good and the bad, usually you just judge by the results, since you're not motivated for anything except wanting things to work out in a way that aligns with your broader interests.
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Undisciplined2d ago
And the government is famous for wasting money on unnecessary bridges. The point stands that the burden is on them to demonstrate plausible value before taking our money, not on us to prove it isn't valuable. Opposing an unjustified bridge and affirmatively believing it to be a bad idea are not the same position.
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